Transcript / show notes for the 'Podcast' discussion of my research. The discussion to present the data is created by AI, contents are my original research which was conducted in 2019 at Coventry University

'It's about recognising that the glass ceiling, it doesn't just appear when a woman becomes a mother. It's built like brick by brick through all these subtle biases and discriminatory practices that often start way before she even has the baby.'

All right, get ready, because today we're going deep on a topic that might just change how you see the glass ceiling. Interesting, right. We're going to explore how becoming a mom can impact a woman's career.

Yeah. You know what? What's that? The challenges. They might actually start before the baby arrives.

Yeah. You know, we often assume the difficulties begin, like after childbirth, during those crazy early years of motherhood. Makes sense.

But the research we're looking at today, it kind of suggests that the bias against working moms might already be there, like way earlier. Okay, you've got me hooked. Good.

So tell me, what exactly are we diving into today? Well, for this deep dive, we're focusing on this really interesting independent psychology project by a student named Paula Broadbent. Cool. And she tackles this question, like head on, you know, the question that's been around forever, does becoming a mother actually contribute to the lack of women in leadership roles? The question that resonates with so many women.

 And I got to say, the statistics are pretty discouraging, to say the least. Didn't Broadbent's research show that only a small percentage of board roles in, like, the top companies were actually held by women? You're right. You're remembering correctly.

Okay. It was a pretty grim picture back in 2018. Yeah.

Only 29% of those, you know, powerful board seats in FTSE 100 companies, they were filled by women. Wow. Less than a third.

That's a stark number. It is. So how does Broadbent even approach this complex issue? Right.

This is where that stereotype content model comes in, right? Yes, exactly. I have to admit, I needed a little refresher on that one. Sure.

So the SCM, think of it as a way to, like, break down how we perceive different groups of people. Okay. So basically, it boils down to two main things, competence and warmth.

Right. Do we see a group as, like, capable and skilled? Uh-huh. That's confidence.

Okay. Do we see them as friendly and trustworthy? That's warmth. So it's like, it's almost like we're judging people, but based with these stereotypes that we already have in our heads.

Exactly. Yeah. You got it.

Okay. And what's really cool about Broadbent's research is that she applied this model specifically to mother and pregnant. Interesting.

Which hasn't really been done before. Wow. So she wanted to measure how those labels, like, just those labels alone, impact perceptions.

Okay. And what did she find? Wow. Because I have a feeling this is where it gets really interesting.

You are in for a surprise. Okay. The most striking finding, and the one that really challenges our assumptions, is that the pregnant category, it received the lowest scores across the board.

Oh, wow. For competence, for status, and even for perceived leadership abilities. Hold on.

Even lower than mother. Yes. So it's not even about having the kids.

It's literally about just being pregnant. It's about the state of pregnancy itself. Wow.

I never even thought about it that way. Yeah. It's a real eye-opener, isn't it? It is.

And it really suggests that the bias against working moms might be, you know, deeper than just the practical challenges of, like, juggling work and child-care. Okay. So if it's not just about the logistics of it all, then what is going on here? Right.

Why are pregnant women... Yeah. Why are they viewed so negatively in a professional setting? Well, Broadbent. She looked at, you know, previous research to understand the reasons behind these low scores, and one possible explanation is that pregnancy, it can be seen as disruptive to the workplace.

 It doesn't fit neatly into our, like, traditional expectations of a nine-to-five job. It's like pregnancy is, like, messing up the system instead of just being seen as a normal part of life. Right.

Exactly. Yes. And unfortunately, there's also this tendency to focus on the physical changes of pregnancy... Yeah.

 ...rather than a woman's, you know, intellect and skills. Right. So suddenly, it becomes all about the growing belly and not about, you know, her mind and her abilities.

Instead of seeing a competent professional, people just see, oh, a pregnant woman. Sadly, that's often the case. So frustrating.

It is. And then on top of that, you have those old, tired tropes about hormonal behavior... Oh, yeah. ...which just further undermine perceptions of competence and professionalism.

It's frustrating that these stereotypes are still so pervasive. It is. And the timing of this bias, like, it couldn't be worse, you know? Yeah.

 We're talking a time when women are going through this huge life transition, merging their professional identities with this new role as a mother. So they're already vulnerable, trying to figure out this new chapter, and then they get hit with these negative perceptions on top of it all. Exactly.

And facing those stereotypes and potential discrimination at such a crucial time, it could have lasting consequences on, like, their career decisions. So it's like they're being penalized for a natural part of life... Yeah. ...before they've even had a chance to show how they can balance, you know, motherhood and work.

 Exactly. And that's where this concept of status comes in. Okay.

It's not just about abstract perceptions. It has real-world implications. Okay.

So let's talk about status. Yeah. So what does that actually mean in, like, the context of this research? Sure.

 So in the SCM, status refers to, like, how much power and influence people think a group has. Okay. And this is where it gets interesting.

Okay. Broadbent, she found a direct link between lower perceived status and lower perceived competence. So you're saying if someone is seen as having a low status, people automatically assume they're less capable.

Sadly, that's what her research showed. Wow. And for pregnant women, this can have, you know, very real consequences at work.

 Like what kind of consequences? Well, think about it. Yeah. If your colleagues, your superiors, they see you as less competent just because you're pregnant, you know, they might not give you challenging assignments or consider you for leadership roles.

It's like this invisible barrier pops up right when you're starting to think about your future as a working mom. So they're being judged on their potential future limitations... Yeah. ...instead of their current capabilities.

Exactly. And that can create a vicious cycle. So imagine you're pregnant, right? You're feeling all the excitement, the anticipation, but also maybe a little apprehensive about how it's going to be perceived at work.

Oh, it's low. And then you start to notice like these subtle cues that people are treating you differently, seeing you as less capable. Yeah.

You start to doubt yourself. Exactly. Wondering if you can really do it all.

Yeah. And that self-doubt... Yeah. ...it can lead to guilt.

Like you're letting your team down by being pregnant. Which could then lead to overcompensating, right? Just to prove you're still committed and hardworking. It's a natural response.

Yeah. But it can be exhausting, you know, in the long run. And sadly, all of this can contribute to pregnant women withdrawing from work, either physically or emotionally.

It's almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy... It is. ...where the negative perceptions actually create the very behaviors that just reinforce those perceptions. Yeah.

It's a lot to unpack. It is. It paints a pretty, I don't know, a bit of a sad picture... ...of the challenges that pregnant women are facing in the workplace.

But it's important to remember, this is just one part of the story, right? Exactly. We still need to explore what happens after the baby actually arrives. Right.

How the perceptions of working mother... Yes. ...differ from pregnant. Exactly. 

That's what we'll dive into next. And I think you'll find that the picture is, well, a little more nuanced than we might expect. Okay, good.

I'm ready for it. All right. Before we jump into that working mother category... ...curious, what's resonating with you from what we've learned so far about Paula Broadbent's research? Honestly, for me, the whole idea that the bias against working moms can actually start during pregnancy... Yeah.

 ...not just after the baby is born... Right. ...that's a huge shift in perspective. It is.

It is. It's a real paradigm shift. Yeah.

And it begs the question... ...if we're talking about the roles they're appearing during pregnancy, then what can we do to support women during this critical time? Instead of just focusing on moms returning from maternity leave, maybe we need to start thinking about creating a more supportive and inclusive environment for expectant mothers right from the start. Exactly. And that support needs to address both the practical challenges... ...and those negative perceptions.

Right. So things like flexible work arrangements, adequate prenatal care, and really clear policies that protect them from discrimination. I mean, those are all essential.

They are. But what about tackling those underlying biases? Right. Like those deep-seated assumptions that lead to these negative stereotypes? That's where it gets tricky, but also more interesting.

 

We need to take a hard look at our cultural narratives about pregnancy and motherhood. So challenging the idea that pregnancy is somehow incompatible with being competent and ambitious. Yes.

 

Yeah. Exactly. We need to move away from these outdated notions that pregnancy is a weakness... ...and instead recognize it as a normal part of life that doesn't diminish a woman's professional abilities at all.

 

Yeah. I love that. Yeah.

 

But how do we actually make that shift happen? Right. These beliefs feel so ingrained in our society. It's going to take a multi-pronged approach.

 

Okay. First, we need to see more pregnant women in leadership positions, you know? Yeah. Seeing successful pregnant women in positions of authority, it can really chip away at those stereotypes... ...and show that pregnancy doesn't have to derail a career.

 

Representation matters. It does. The more we see women thriving in their careers while pregnant, the more it just becomes the norm, not the exception.

 

Absolutely. And that ties into another important strategy, talking openly about these biases, creating a workplace culture where women feel comfortable discussing their experiences with pregnancy discrimination without fear of judgment, that can really help break down the stigma. So it's about creating that sense of psychological safety where everyone feels valued and supported no matter their family status.

 

Exactly. And this includes engaging men in the conversation, too. Bringing men into these discussions about gender equality, unconscious bias, and the challenges women face, that can be so powerful in creating a more inclusive workplace.

 

That's such a good point. Like, it's not just a women's issue. It's a workplace issue that impacts everyone.

 

Exactly. You nailed it. And organizations themselves, they have a huge role to play here.

 

Implementing training programs that address unconscious bias, specifically around pregnancy and motherhood, that can make a big difference. So going beyond simply avoiding discrimination. It's about actively supporting pregnant women and mothers.

 

So things like mentorship programs, leadership development opportunities, and truly flexible work policies. Exactly. It's about organizations shifting from being simply family friendly to becoming truly family supportive.

 

I like that. Yeah. Okay.

 

That all makes sense. Good. But what about the legal side of things? I thought there were already laws in place to protect pregnant women from discrimination.

 

You're right. There are laws. Okay.

 

But they're not always effective. Okay. Why is that? If the laws exist, shouldn't that be enough? Well, proving discrimination, especially when it's subtle or unspoken, it can be so difficult.

 

It's rarely a blatant, you're fired because you're pregnant situation. Yeah. It's more like being passed over for promotions or given less challenging assignments.

 

Those things are hard to prove. Exactly. It's often like a feeling, a sense that you're being treated differently, which is tough to prove legally.

 

So even with laws, there's still a gap in protection. Yeah. So what can we do to address that? Well, one approach is to strengthen those enforcement mechanisms, making it easier for women to report discrimination and hold employers accountable.

 

What about shifting the burden of proof? Oh, interesting. Instead of the woman having to prove she was discriminated against. Yeah.

 

Maybe the employer has to prove that they didn't discriminate. That's an interesting idea, and it's been proposed in some legal circles. It's about shifting the focus from individual cases to those broader patterns of discrimination.

 

Right. I could see how that could be more effective in tackling those more subtle forms of bias. But even with stronger laws, changing those underlying attitudes and beliefs, it still feels just as important.

 

It is. Laws, they can provide a framework, but creating a truly inclusive workplace where everyone feels valued and respected, regardless of their family status, that comes down to individuals and organizations making a conscious effort. You know what? We've covered a lot.

 

We have. But I want to go back to something Paula Broadbent said in her research about pregnancy disrupting workplace norms. Okay.

 

It really got me thinking. Yeah. It's a thought-provoking point.

 

It is. What if we reframe how we even view disruption when it comes to pregnancy, instead of seeing it as this negative disruption that needs to be minimized or controlled? What if we saw it as an opportunity for growth and innovation? I love that perspective. It aligns with everything we've been talking about, about challenging those traditional assumptions about work and family.

 

Pregnancy, with all of its changes and challenges, could actually inspire new ways of working, new leadership styles, and a more flexible and inclusive environment for everyone. It's about recognizing that diversity, in all its forms, can be a source of strength and creativity. Yeah.

 

It's a more hopeful and empowering way to look at it. That's for sure. It is.

 

It's like a call to action, to challenge the status quo, embrace change, and create a future where women can thrive, both professionally and personally. Okay, before we get too carried away with this utopian future, let's bring it back to the research. Yeah.

 

We're about to dive into that working mother category. Yes. What did Broadbent's research reveal about how those women are perceived? This is where we see a more complex picture emerge.

 

While working mothers, they did see an increase in perceived warmth compared to career women. Okay. Their scores for competence, they still lagged behind.

 

So they're seen as more likable and approachable, but still not as capable as women without children. Yeah. That's basically it.

 

It's frustrating. It is frustrating, but it's important to note that this also challenges this idea of a single motherhood stereotype, right? Right. It's not like all mothers are perceived the same way.

 

There's nuance to it. Okay, that makes sense. Not all mothers are the same, just like not all women are the same.

 

Exactly. But why do you think those competence scores stay lower for working moms? Well, it probably comes down to a combination of factors, including those persistent stereotypes about mothers being less committed to their careers, as well as the real challenges of balancing work and family. It's like people just assume that because they're mothers, their lips focus on their careers, even if there's no evidence at all.

 

Exactly. And this is where comparing those findings to perceptions of working fathers gets really interesting. What do you think we might see there? Yeah.

 

I have a feeling that working fathers don't experience that same drop in perceived competence. Yeah. If anything, maybe it goes up.

 

You're on the right track. Okay. Broadbent found that working fathers, they do see a slight dip in perceived status compared to career men, but they actually gain warmth.

 

So it's almost like becoming a dad gives them a boost in terms of likability and trustworthiness. Exactly. And this helps explain that whole fatherhood bonus thing.

 

Right. The idea that men are often rewarded, not penalized for becoming fathers. Yes.

 

It's such a contrast to motherhood. It is. Motherhood can be seen as a liability, while fatherhood is an asset.

 

Exactly. It highlights these deep-seated gender biases that we've been talking about. Society often expects mothers to be the primary caregivers, even if they're working full-time.

 

While fathers get a pat on the back for just showing up. It's like there's this assumption that mothers should be doing it all, both at home and at work, and fathers get a free pass. And that double standard.

 

It can create so much pressure on working moms, leading to stress, burnout, and potentially even impacting their career progression. It's like they're constantly being judged against this impossible standard. Exactly.

 

And this brings us back to the core issue here. The lack of women in leadership roles. If working mothers are constantly seen as less competent, it makes sense that they're less likely to be considered for those top jobs.

 

Right. It's like that invisible barrier we talked about earlier that starts during pregnancy, continues through motherhood, and ultimately prevents women from breaking through that glass ceiling. It's a complex systemic problem, but understanding how these biases operate, that's the first step towards change.

 

Okay. So we've talked about competence, warmth, status. But there's one piece of the puzzle we haven't really touched on yet.

 

What's that? Leadership. Okay. How do all these perceptions impact women's access to leadership roles? That's a crucial question.

 

And to explore this, Broadbent, she added a specific question to the SCM, shows leadership abilities. Okay. I'm on the edge of my seat here.

 

What did the research reveal? Well, it showed that both the pregnant and mother categories scored way lower on that shows leadership abilities question. Really? Yeah. Which just reinforces this link between negative stereotypes and limited access to leadership positions.

 

Yeah. I mean, that's not surprising to hear, but it's still, it's kind of disheartening to see it play out in the research. If women are already seen as less competent and having lower status during pregnancy and motherhood, it makes sense that they're not really seen as leadership material.

 

Yeah. It's that vicious cycle. And it has a direct impact on hiring decisions, promotions, ultimately, who ends up in charge? You know, this has been such a fascinating- It has.

 

Deep dive. Yeah. We've uncovered some, you know, not so great patterns, but I also feel like we're starting to understand the root causes here.

 

Right. Which is, you know, the first step towards change. Absolutely.

 

By shining a light on these biases, we can start to like really challenge them and create a more level playing field. But where do we go from here? Right. What can we actually do to create these more equitable workplaces, you know, for women going through pregnancy and motherhood? Well, it's going to take a multifaceted approach, you know, tackling both the individual and systemic levels.

 

Okay. On an individual level, we need to encourage that open dialogue and challenge those assumptions we've been discussing. Like, we need to see more pregnant women in leadership and we need to create a culture where women feel comfortable speaking up.

 

So it's about, like, shifting the narrative. Yeah. Both internally and externally.

 

Exactly. And then on that systemic level, you know, organizations, they need to step up and implement policies that actually support working mothers. So we're talking, you know, real commitment to flexible work arrangements.

 

Right. Paid parental leave. Yeah.

 

And affordable childcare options. I mean, those are all, like, key pieces of the puzzle. They are.

 

But I also keep thinking about what Broadbent said. Yeah. About pregnancy impacting a woman's, that psychological contract at work.

 

Oh, that's an important point. Yeah. That psychological contract, it refers to those, like, unspoken expectations and obligations between an employee and their employer.

 

It's all about trust, fairness, reciprocity. So that feeling of, like, mutual understanding and respect. Yeah.

 

That underpins a good working relationship. Exactly. And when a woman becomes pregnant, those unspoken agreements, they can get disrupted.

 

Right. Which can lead to, you know, feelings of guilt, pressure, even resentment. Like the women in Broadbent's study who felt like they had to, like, overperform just to prove that they weren't, you know, slacking off because they were pregnant.

 

It's that fear of being seen as less committed or less capable that can be so damaging. And it creates, like, this vicious cycle. It does.

 

Right? If they feel like they constantly have to prove themselves, it just reinforces that stereotype. Right. That they're not as reliable or dedicated as their colleagues who aren't pregnant.

 

Exactly. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. And it highlights the need for, you know, really open communication, clear expectations between employers and employees, especially during those times of transition.

 

So how can organizations even create, like, a more supportive environment where pregnant women, they feel, you know, valued and respected without feeling like they have to overcompensate all the time? It starts by recognizing that pregnancy is a normal part of life, you know, not something to be hidden or treated like a taboo subject. So create a culture where women actually feel comfortable talking about their pregnancies, their needs, their expectations with their managers, their colleagues. Openly and honestly, yeah.

 

And that openness needs to be met with flexibility and understanding from the employers, right? Absolutely. So providing pregnant women with, you know, options, flexible work arrangements, modified duties, even temporary leave without penalty or judgment. Yes.

 

That can make a huge difference. It's about understanding that supporting pregnant employees, it's not just the right thing to do. Right.

 

It's actually good for business. It is. When women feel supported and valued, they're more likely to be engaged, productive and loyal.

 

It's a win-win for everybody. We've covered so much today. Quite have.

 

From the surprising research to the very real challenges to potential solutions and strategies for creating a better future. It's been a great discussion. What's the like most important message that you hope listeners take away from this whole deep dive? I think the key takeaway is that that transition to motherhood, it can have a huge impact on women's careers, but that impact is often shaped by, you know, those deep-seated stereotypes and biases that we really need to challenge.

 

It's about recognizing that the glass ceiling, it doesn't just appear when a woman becomes a mother. Right. It's built like brick by brick through all these subtle biases and discriminatory practices that often start way before she even has the baby.

 

And the most effective way to shatter that glass ceiling is to address those biases head on. Right. You know, through open dialogue, supportive policies and a commitment to creating a more equitable and inclusive workplace for everyone.

 

That's a that's a powerful call to action. It is. I think it leaves our listeners with a lot to consider.

 

It does. And if Paula Broadbent's research has sparked your interest, you know, we encourage you to explore her work further. We'll have a link to her full study in the show notes.

 

Great. Thanks for joining us on this deep dive. Until next time, keep learning, keep questioning and keep pushing for a better future.